Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Maher Abbas: Difference between revisions

Maher Abbas (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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Declined prod. Information was added that he is a surgeon but I don’t believe it is enough to meet WP:BIO. Also fails WP:SPORTSCRIT and WP:NOLY. LibStar (talk) 07:51, 2 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong keep, I was able to confirm that Maher Abbas the Olympian and Maher A. Abbas the acclaimed Stanford cardiologist (surgeon) are the same person and added to the IP editor’s claim with that. Abbas’ work and books have been cited in at least 36 different articles on newspapers.com, some going into detail about his life, see for example “Olive oil full of healthy fats”. Iowa City Press-Citizen. 16 Aug 2000. p. 21. Retrieved 2 February 2025. and “Tuscan oil cream of the crop but don’t disregard the others Continued from page C1”. The Toronto Star. 20 Oct 1993. p. 42. Retrieved 2 February 2025.. The assertion in nominator statement that Abbas doesn’t meet SPORTCRIT isn’t true because of the provided cite, and GNG is met making the subject-specific notability guidelines moot anyways. Edit: See below for coverage as an athlete, the sources confirm he’s a surgeon but not a cardiologist. Edit 2: I’ve unstruck the above comments (in green) thanks to the great research by User:Uncle G below, as it seems like these were the same two people all along as I thought, meaning we can use these sources. –Habst (talk) 04:55, 3 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  the links in the article describe him as a “colorectal and gastrointestinal surgeon” with zero mention of being a cardiologist in his experience listing. Is that the same person as the Stanford cardiologist you refer to? Cardiology is a completely different speciality. LibStar (talk) 04:59, 3 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  this source about Tuscan oil I would not regard as WP:SIGCOV, it’s a few lines mentioning Abbas in a larger article and quoting him rather than coverage about him. LibStar (talk) 05:07, 3 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  No you have not “confirmed” that the colorectal surgeon and cardiologist are the same person! None of the sources suggest this. The Scopus profile of the surgeon makes no mention of any cardiology work (which would be unheard of for a colorectal surgeon…), and the Anavara page says he only got his MD at Stanford and did his residency and practiced elsewhere, so would never be called a “Stanford” anything. The 1993 article would put him as a practicing cardiologist at 27 years old, which would mean completing medical school at 21 at the latest, all in the midst of training and competing as an Olympic athlete. JoelleJay (talk) 07:18, 3 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  Thanks JoelleJay. I think the strong keep is looking weak, by providing sources for a completely different person. LibStar (talk) 08:09, 3 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  @LibStar @JoelleJay, just to be clear, you think that there are two different “Maher Abbas” who are both Lebanese, studied at Stanford University at around the same time, and happen to work in the medical field? Because we know that at least one Maher Abbas who did all of those things is the Olympic athlete and article subject.

  In the 1980s, most Olympic athletes were still amateurs who didn’t train full time, so yes, it’s entirely plausible he was a medical student while competing. –Habst (talk) 14:26, 3 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  Obviously he is not both a colorectal surgeon and a cardiologist! JoelleJay (talk) 22:14, 3 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment the 2 sources that confirm he is a colorectal surgeon and not a cardiologist appear to be primary or a database. I don’t think he meets notability based on his medical career. LibStar (talk) 08:44, 3 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  @LibStar, here’s another article that talks about him going to medical school and nonetheless covers his athletic career enough to meet SIGCOV:

  “Student to Participate In Olympics For Lebanon”. The Atlanta Journal. 8 Sep 1988. p. 140. Retrieved 3 February 2025. “Abbas From Page 8”. The Atlanta Journal. 8 Sep 1988. p. 143. Retrieved 3 February 2025.

  Given that SIGCOV is met based solely on the athletic achievements, it seems like the identity issue, which again I think it would be highly unlikely that there are two Lebanese “Maher Abbas” in the medical field that studied at Stanford at the same time, would be a content dispute that can be resolved on the talk page unrelated to the deletion discussion. –Habst (talk) 16:02, 3 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  Why doesn’t his current profile not list any cardiology in his experience? I strongly contest this Maher Abbas is both the same cardiologist and colorectal surgeon. There is insufficient evidence to say they are the same person. LibStar (talk) 22:06, 3 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  He was a college senior in 1988. The idea that he became a practicing cardiologist by 1993 is laughable. JoelleJay (talk) 22:21, 3 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  @JoelleJay @LibStar, that’s fine, I’ve struck the cardiologist cites as we have SIGCOV clearly about the athlete anyways. Thanks for your fact checking on this. –Habst (talk) 00:34, 4 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  Do you have WP:THREE good sources that cover Abbas? LibStar (talk) 00:06, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  @LibStar, there should be many more sources about Abbas in The Emory Wheel as he was their first Olympian, but those archives are only available to Emory students. Maybe we can put in a query at WP:RX? –Habst (talk) 14:31, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep, per the significant coverage in The Atlanta Journal. BeanieFan11 (talk) 00:04, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, All Tomorrows No Yesterdays (Ughhh…. What did I do wrong this time?) 13:22, 9 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: There seems to be some doubt about the identity of the person – at least two different people are referenced by the sources.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Owen× ☎ 09:14, 17 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

• I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but
  • The author autobiography in the 1995 olive oil book claims that its Maher A. Abbas was born in Lebanon, went to Emory and Stanford, “spent two and a half years researching cardiovascular disease at the Falk Cardiovascular Research Center of Stanford University”, “was awarded the American Federation Clinical Research Award for his contribution to the understanding of cardiovascular disease”, and that “[a]mong his many accomplishments is his participation in the 400m and 800m running events in the 1988 Olympic Games in Seoul, Korea.”
  • The 30-years-later autobiography of the Maher A. Abbas who works in the United Arab Emirates claims that its Maher A. Abbas was born in Lebanon, went to Emory and Stanford, “served to date over a decade and three terms as the associate editor of Diseases of Colon and Rectum, the official scientific journal of the American Society of Colon and Rectal Surgeons” and “is a former Olympian and competed in the Seoul 1988 Olympic Games in track and field”.
• This is all autobiographical, of course, but the olive oil “cardiologist” Maher A. Abbas in that Iowa City Press-Citizen article and the surgical professor Maher A. Abbas are claiming to be one and the same person, 30 years apart; who started xyr residency in surgery 2 years after the book, that those newspapers are talking about, was published, and who is claimed to be a practicing surgeon now, in 2025 after a 28 year career in it beginning in 1997, not back in 1993. Uncle G (talk) 11:07, 17 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  Ah ok, my mistake, and I don’t see how that’s bad news! Though it seems he couldn’t have been a practicing cardiologist at any point, as there’s no way he completed a residency + fellowship in it, and certainly was not one at the time of the 1993 article when he was still in med school. That’s what threw me off—the implication from “heart disease research specialist at Stanford” in the Toronto Star that he was already a cardiologist with a position at Stanford in 1993 when in reality he was only a medical student with no specialization at all at the time and no employment at Stanford… There was nothing about heart research mentioned on his LinkedIn, and when I had checked his boarding it was only in general surgery and colorectal surgery (legally you have to be boarded to call yourself a cardiologist, so it looks like he was passing himself off as one improperly in the 2000 article?). Seems the self-promo started quite early… JoelleJay (talk) 17:40, 17 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  Thank you for your great research, I have un-struck my comments above then meaning we can use those sources, making the case for keep even stronger. –Habst (talk)

• Delete: Forgive the lengthy !vote. This is a pretty bizarre case but I think I have figured out the mystery. Abbas describes himself as a cardiologist in his author bio in his 1995 cookbook. (Use “search inside” to look for page 159, where it says “He spent two and a half years researching cardiovascular disease at the Falk Cardiovascular Research Center of Stanford University and was awarded the American Federation Clinical Research Award [sic] for his contribution to the understanding of cardiovascular disease.“) Meanwhile, his personal webpage bio says: “After 7 years at Stanford University, Dr. Maher received his surgical training at the Mayo Clinic, which is ranked as the number 1 hospital in the United States. His subspecialty fellowship in colon and rectal surgery was at the Cleveland Clinic following which he became a diplomate of the American Bo Cleaard of Surgery and the American Board of Colon and Rectal Surgery.” His LinkedIn profile (not a reliable source, obviously, but helpful to all of us amateur sleuths) offers some clues. The education section includes his time at Stanford Medical School from 1989 to 1994 and then skips ahead to his surgery residency at Mayo Clinic from 1997 to 2002 and his colorectal surgery fellowship at the Cleveland Clinic from 2002 to 2003. The experience section starts in 2005 with Southern California Permanente Medical Group. The LinkedIn page completely skips the cardiology work (the Falk Center, etc) but the gap from 1994 to 1997 lines up with the 1995 book bio. Clearly he trained in cardiology, quit that and went back to start over in colorectal surgery, where he built the rest of his career. OK, mystery solved; on to the merits of notability. I simply don’t see a pass on any guideline. The Atlanta Journal articles are together a single source (one article with a jump to another page). It’s the only WP:SIGCOV I can find, so I don’t see a pass there. The articles about his views on olive oil are WP:TRIVIALMENTIONs. His books (in addition to the cookbook, he wrote an out-of-print book on phen-fen) don’t appear to have been received full-length reviews in independent sources so I don’t see a pass on WP:NAUTHOR. Regarding WP:NACADEMIC, his h-index of 41 is on the low side of average for a full professor in the life sciences so I don’t see a pass on criterion 1, and the medical society fellowships listed on his LinkedIn bio are of the kind that are easy for people in the discipline to apply and pay for, not the rare and prestigious fellowships envisioned in criterion 3. Finally, he does not pass on WP:NOLY as a non-medalist in his Olympic appearance. I suppose we could redirect to Lebanon at the 1988 Summer Olympics but I do not see a pass for a standalone page on any applicable guideline. Dclemens1971 (talk) 17:43, 24 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Adding a source assessment table of all sources in article and raised in discussion to underpin my analysis (as mentioned above, I see only one GNG-qualifying source):

Per WP:SPORTCRIT, having a piece of SIGCOV indicate[s] that there are likely sufficient sources to merit a stand-alone article. We have one clearly significant source which among other things notes that he was among the top athletic prospects in Lebanon before immigrating to the U.S., setting multiple u18 national records and being projected to represent them at the 1984 Olympics before suffering severe injuries in a motorcycle crash. Note that he did represent Lebanon at the Olympics in 1988, and it appears that not one single Lebanese newspaper has been searched. Not one. Is it reasonable to think that the top athletic prospect in a nation would not get covered in that nation? Absolutely not. Especially when his 1984 Olympic participation was prevented by severe injuries from a motorcycle crash – That is something that almost assuredly would have been covered significantly in the Lebanese press. SPORTCRIT is the only thing that needs to be demonstrated at this discussion; if the news of the nation the athlete is from has not been searched, then SPORTCRIT is sufficient to keep at the present. BeanieFan11 (talk) 18:12, 24 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

This is incorrect. it is likely that sufficient sources exist to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article refers to meets the criteria set forth below. In the absence of passing on a sport-specific SNG (there’s no evidence he passes WP:NOLY or WP:NTRACK, the guideline referenced is WP:GNG, which requires multiple published non-trivial secondary sources which are reliable, intellectually independent, and independent of the subject. A single piece of SIGCOV is insuffcient to clear NSPORT or GNG. This discussion has been open for three weeks and no one has supplied a single Lebanese source on this individual. We’re past the point of relying on WP:MUSTBESOURCES. If anyone has them, bring them. Dclemens1971 (talk) 18:24, 24 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

No, the quote is Sports biographies must include at least one reference to a source providing significant coverage of the subject … [if provided] it does indicate that there are likely sufficient sources to merit a stand-alone article. This says nothing of that the only times when having SIGCOV means more coverage is likely to exist is only applicable when the garbled mess of specific criteria listed “below” are “met”. It says that any sports bio meeting SPORTCRIT is likely to have further coverage. GNG should be met, but is not required to be met immediately, especially when no one has searched a single newspaper from his time. Not one single Lebanese newspaper has been searched by anyone here, and none of us can because we don’t have the access! Saying we need to delete because we have one piece of SIGCOV but not two even though no one has checked any of the sources which are exceedingly likely to contain further extensive coverage is ridiculous. BeanieFan11 (talk) 18:36, 24 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I used to think the same thing about SPORTSCRIT sources until I was corrected by @GiantSnowman and @Asilvering in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Felix Goddard, specifically from the WP:NSPORT faqs: Q2: If a sports figure meets the criteria specified in a sports-specific notability guideline, does this mean they do not have to meet the general notability guideline? A2: No, the article must still eventually provide sources indicating that the subject meets the general notability guideline. Although the criteria for a given sport should be chosen to be a very reliable predictor of the availability of appropriate secondary coverage from reliable sources, there can be exceptions. For contemporary persons, given a reasonable amount of time to locate appropriate sources, the general notability guideline should be met in order for an article to meet Wikipedia’s standards for inclusion. We’ve had a reasonable amount of time here. Dclemens1971 (talk) 18:47, 24 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

That quote is regarding contemporary persons. There’s a difference between Goddard, a 20-year-old English footballer for whom we’d be able to access or find virtually every story that could have been written on him, and Abbas, who is not a modern figure, having competed in the offline era, such that zero sources from his time / nation are accessible. BeanieFan11 (talk) 18:54, 24 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]